Backs Against a Wall

[Ed Douglas]

In most military strategies, you like to be the superior force, with more men and equipment than your enemy. Sun Tzu had a different take on this. One of his many strategies, was if you were against a superior army, was to basically "trap" his own army. He would put them in a location, where there was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. He discovered how to truly motivate his own army, and they would fight like mad men, and would overcome the enemy's army by making his men think they had "nothing to lose".  In life, there is nothing more dangerous, than someone that has nothing to lose. When you are in your place of survival, you will have to take this into account, if a traveler locates your place. If he decides he wants what you have, he will be like one of Sun Tzu's warriors. You won't be able to play nice. You will have to "take him out" without prejudice. Will you have the intestinal fortitude (guts) to do this?

[Bill]

 Ed, very well put. In those days we will find what lies within. Are we saints or are we demons? Light does not exist without dark. The most soft spoken person can change in the blink of an eye when faced with starvation or severe thurst. Sometimes I wonder if the worst case senario is that most survive. It could be very difficult to protect against hoards of starving people. If planning to save a large number of friends and family stealth becomes much more difficult. Back against the wall may be the only way.   Great post Ed.

[Ed Douglas]

By the same token, if we have our backs against the wall, for survival, how far are we willing to go? Do our morals and ethics and religious beliefs get thrown out, because we feel we have no choice, and must do some things against our nature, to protect, and help, our loved ones survive? Will there be a total breakdown of humanity and a reversion to savagery? The book "The Lord of the Flies", shows how a plane full of choir boys, crashes on an island, with no surviving adults. Gradually, they resort to barbarian methods and survival of the fittest. Is this what will happen with those that survive the coming disasters? Or have we evolved enough to overcome those instinctive feelings, with reason and mental control of ourselves? These are many of the situations that we might face. Would you harm, or kill another human, to save your own children? Or, by the grace of the supreme being, will we show that we are civilized enough to ascend to a higher state of being? Wow, this is going to be one heck of a test for humanity. Thoughts?

[Bill]

One need not look very far to know what will happen when society breaks down, when law and order is no longer the way. Some of us will be civil,lots will help their neighbors, many will feel that what is yours is theirs, some will feel they are stronger and will try and take what they want. Rape, pillage and plunder will be a way of life for some! Many people don't have a clue how to feed themselves except by steeling from others. Look at any natural disaster and see how quickly society breaks down, and that happens when help is on the way, Imagine the wide spread total devastation caused by X. No help is on its way, the world and its people will turn savage very quickly, almost like throwing a light switch. Barbarians at the gate will have to be dealt with. We will have to learn to judge a book by its cover, hesitation will cost you or a loved one. One must be prepared, you will need food, water shelter, friends and family! You will have to defend your group, sticks and stone's will help, but you better have armament's and Lot's of ammo!   Bill

[Carluccio_piattino]

Ed and Bill,

This will be perhaps the toughest experience of all, even worse than big quakes in a sense.

The easiest (easiest in comparison to what is expected) scenario is a series of 2004 tsunamis and Chile 8.8 to 9.0 quakes hitting pseudo-randomly (along the rim of fire and in between tectonic plates). This will already be a nightmare, but locally disrupted help and social control will be supplied by farther allocated groups of helpers and order keepers. Small countries will be at their own, having nothing to be replaced in case of hit. Most inland cities in big countries will survive even unscathed. Country side will be almostpreserved.

The worst scenario IMO is enough destruction to disrupt most mechanisms of social control and helpers throughout a given country, with a fairly large percentage of population surviving in the big cities that will probably turn into savagery to go on surviving (either attacking or defending).

An almost total annihilation of the population in a very large area or country may not be the worst case scenario (in the sense we are debating) as there will be less critical mass to go savage.

If Earth is planned to enter a higher density in a short period of time, then almost total or total annihilation is the way out. Souls will be selected carefully to re-populate Earth then, and Earth will enter in what we could call paradise in comparison to today's problems. This, however precludes an incredible amount of suffering with really, really big geological and outer space events (meteors and meteorites) that will turn Earth as we know upside down, literally (pole shift and the like).
A much less suffering scenario for total annihilation will be a possible entering of Earth into a strong and unknown to us radiation field. I had already brought in here this possibility in one thread I cannot remember. A case of special viewing in the future by an abducted person (I cannot recall if he was abducted in an astral plane or in physicality) that were transported inside a flying vehicle that witnessed this event when a golden light came from the sky and liberated all souls in that given place (Brasilia DC, capital of Brazil) from their 3D body. It was clear that this was happening at the same time all over the world. Suffering would be reduced to great moments of fear and that is it.

This last scenario is way out of our hands and present knowledge. What remains is what you both mentioned: sudden havoc and mayhem. If we are not prone to use weaponry (as it is my case) the best thing to do is to leave everything behind and take your beloved ones with you and flee to the countryside toward a pre-chosen area close to relatives or trustful friends, to be part or start a small community as hidden as possible and low profile. Many thousands and perhaps millions will do the same, but if you figured out a good area to go then you have better chances. In case of the worst scenario (no helpers and order keepers), staying in the cities or big towns is to ask for certain trouble IMO.

BR,

Carluccio

[Ed Douglas]

Good points  that you made, Carluccio. If you are not a person that owns weapons, nor cares to use any, it is best to try to find a group, that will do the defending, while you do things to help perpetuate the group. If you can't find a group anywhere near, you will be best cared for by getting away from large numbers of people, and finding someplace isolated, and stay there for a while.

[ASEEKERTOO]

whoa. A very deep subject. Spiritually speaking, we are here for a purpose. We are stuck in a body of 'clay' with our 5 senses
to experience the illusory world around us. The real task is to discover our Spirit from God.
Matthew 22:20-22
What is God's is our Spiritual energy and one that should focus on the 'Holy Spirit' and/or The Father, The Son, and the Holy
Ghost.
What is Caesars, in a cursory way of speaking; is things of the world.
As long as Truth and Justice and Righteousness is practiced in our day to day living then we should be blameless. And I speak
as a man not as a mouthpiece of God...........
The Bible also says; Matthew 16:24-28, That 'For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life for
MY SAKE shall find it.'
So, absolutely !, the question of whether to kill groups of people who come across your living area will be a difficult choice.
To meet the requirements of Truth and Justice and Righteousness I propose that Communities that are established in the
difficult years following worldwide destruction implement a plan........
This plan is to locate a facility AWAY from the established community that is STOCKED with provisions for any travelers
that may come your way. Put into it what you can spare. Those that come to you can replenish themselves and be on
their way if need be. And perhaps they may be carrying something that they do not need and they can leave it there.
I guess what I am trying to say is that compassion should come before the use of a Club. The world having been as it is
since the dawn of man; the club is often needed, as the stories of Gods Chosen People will attest to. Those 'parties' that
come past your community will make themselves known pretty easily if they are Good or Evil. Take your cue as you see it.
The road of man and the road of mans spirituality is difficult ! Peace all, David...

[Ed Douglas]

That is what it all comes to; do you give up your religious beliefs, morals, and ethics, to survive physically, but surrendering the spiritual?  To help one of your children/wife, live? Nobody really knows how they will act, til they are in that situation, under those circumstances. How are you all gonna act?

[Montanabarb]

Ed: In my fanciful childhood musings, I thought that I would like to be brave enough to allow myself to be martyred for my spiritual values (like Victor Mature and Jean Simmons in "The Robe," who held hands and faced the lions in the Roman Colliseum.)  But practicality takes over, and I'm pretty sure that as long as there is someone alive who needs me here, to help them and give them the gifts and benefits of my lifetime of experience, that I would be pretty quick to take up my stainless steel .44 Smith and Wesson and protect my turf and loved ones.  If that makes me a failure, spiritually, I have live with it;  to believe I'm being guided, and I have to do what my "instincts" tell me.

P.S. I'm a pretty darn good shot.

[Ed Douglas]

May I call you Montana?haha  It is difficult to remember my spiritual beliefs and moral rules when some punk has a knife or gun to my wife's throat. Will I kill someone for a can of beans? Never. Someone trying to harm me or mine, isn't just wanting the beans. Did you know that if I hit him  with a head shot, he won't have the ability to pull the trigger, and worse for him, if he only has a knife. If someone comes up to you, and asks for food or water, I would find it hard to say no. David, morals and religion are not important compared to life if she didn't live, and I did.

[Bill]

Absolutly correct Barb and Ed, I feel that if I manage to survive the greatest natural disaster in the history of modern man, and I have successfully helped friends and family get thru it , we will not allow ourselves to ever be caught unawares by pillagers. we will defend and yes kill if need be.

[Ed Douglas]

Yes Bill, it is a dilemma though. I wouldn't want any younger children to see me be violent, but unless they're hidden, it can't be avoided forever. We're trying to teach our children to be more civilized than our generation, and to know peace, and before the sentence leaves your mouth, you have to take a life. Worst case scenario is that they see you be harmed. Teaching them to control their instincts would really be difficult then, if you're still around to teach them. You just want to isolate yourself and family until it's all settled, but what are the odds? I hate to have to teach my children how to take a life, but it might become necessary. Before everything goes wacky, you can show and teach a lot, in the name of sport, and convert to real life action if required.  You get to do all this while finding food, water, safe shelter, heat, keeping them healthy. Not pretty, but we can do it.

[Deathanyl]

Guess I'm of a totally different spin then most here call it the realist i guess as our plan is for two communities, a small heavily armed front guard, and a larger more tranquil environment, where we live and store our goods. As i have a bullet press, and don't doubt the availability of copper (will build molds for casings when the time comes  ) Ammo will not be an issue. but personaly our belief is to treat all like outsiders for the first year to be sure they want to join our community, they will be restricted to the edge camp, and will have to defend and act in accordance with our rules or be turned away after 1 meal, be it by force if we must. (all children found may be seized if they can't be provided for)

Morality only factors in if they are initially hostile, and out method will be maim and distance release, as we should have 1 working flying craft if were lucky, if not a horse will work old school. We have a map with other communities i've collected over the past 20 and plan trade and such with some of them, so wanderer's in the area are likely to have heard of us and seek to find us, we even have our flags already made. a unified front with a few thousand will be unstoppable in the time after, even if some citys don't get hit, maybe they will be trading partners who knows, or we may be able to siphon off followers from there locked down and rationed existences.

Our plan is 3 fold 1 have electricity and tech/ weaponry from day 1. 2 have a starting population of over 100, both of these can be done now!
 As for the use of violence think of mid evil crusaders, or Knights, that is what defenders will become, very weapon skilled and of the utmost importance, armored i'm sure, and in some cases Automated if the tech exist. So will i be teaching my kids how to fight and kill, most definitely as how good will the second generation be if unable to defend, in fact all children male and fem will be forced to do 2 years of " training" beyond there Trade, in the use of weapons, chemicals, and warfare. My library is not just survival books 

Those who are spiritual had best hope they are taken in the rapture cause if not you'll be sure to follow if you hesitate to guard/ protect what is yours by being nice. i say speak softly but carry a big stick! Most of the humans coming out of the wilds will be of little to no use and as much as out current society has no qualms with a dumb useless newbie, those who lead after must not let the emotional conditioning of today affect there judgment tomorrow.

Personally One hopes it's larger rather then smaller as a reset is what is needed today. and in the efforts of those who rebuild hopefully once the dust has settled we are a better kinder and more directed society.

[_cj_]

wow 

everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to express that opinion. 

ever thought of peace and love and kindness to your fellow man ?

kindest regards,

alex

[Deathanyl]

wow 

everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to express that opinion. 

ever thought of peace and love and kindness to your fellow man ?

kindest regards,

alex

Sure the peaceful ones hence the trade and the preemptive relations and agreements with other colonies. and did i not mention all get at least 1 free meal, if they want they can earn citizenship and inclusion, but to just open up the door to any and all... well it's not prudent! It is not Evil to be untrusting of the those unknown who were raised in the honor-less society of today, have you watched the colony? season 1 they have those who feel as you do who did help one too many, and some of them came back with no love in there hearts.